Incomprehensible moral belief-systems

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Incomprehensible moral belief-systems

#1

Post by I REALLY HATE PRESENTS! » Tue Nov 27, 2018 11:54 am

Regardless of which side of an issue you fall on there's always nuanced positions on both sides with different sets of logic and moral beliefs, some you appreciate more and others less. You can still understand their position even if you thoroughly disagree with it because it makes sense or at the very least remains consistent with their own disagreeable ideology. However, sometimes there's such inane garbage which flows forth from people that you can hardly tolerate let alone respect. It seems like there's people out there who make it their business to be intellectually dishonest and morally paradoxical yet still pass themselves off as having serious input worthy of consideration. Again, I'm not talking about mere disagreement or even disdain at opposing views, I mean just holding plain bad ones.

A couple of examples. I was thinking about this topic as I watched Ben Shaprio debate someone. He was a guy who basically held the view that, as Ben summarized, "it's wrong to kill a hamster but acceptable to kill a man in a temporary coma." The guy didn't even bat an eye to it, didn't seem as if he felt that his view was mischaracterized or anything, just "hyuk hyuk yep." Here's the video, it's short and contains no objectionable content so I don't think it goes against any rule to post it (to the best of my memory):



This other gem I stumbled upon on accident glancing through a forum:
I'm a pro-choice Christian. I will support a family member's or friend's abortion without pressuring them into any choice, and once that's done I will go to church and light a candle for the little life which didn't get a chance.
While I don't believe Christianity and abortion can go together at all, with enough justification it's theoretically possible to shoehorn them together on some level but that's only possible without acknowledging the fact that abortion is the taking of a life. Generally pro-choice advocates need to deny that there is a life in the equation, usually referring to it as merely a parasite or some other cold and ghastly term, but how can one consolidate the support of a murder and the grievance of that same loss of life? It's trying to have your cake and eat it too, retain morality and yet attain the "benefits" of a pro-choice stance (being able to support something your friends/family are doing, push political agendas, etc).

I'd much sooner respect a wolf who eats sheep in the open over one in sheep's clothing, but I'd even take that over a wolf in sheep's clothing eating sheep and then mourning their demise. I know it's a popular thing in the modern world to think anything goes, that any set of inherently contradictory philosophies can be tied together, and that a denial of reality is now simply one's own truth, but I think there needs to be some kind of line there.

It's probably not possible to separate the inevitable abortion debate from this topic, but keep in mind that's not necessarily what this is about. I'm more interested in stimulating conversation around specific examples of political or philosophical views which aren't actually reasonable. Feel free to share any (an example I often hear but don't agree with as necessarily being contradictory is about people who are for the death penalty but against abortion).

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Re: Incomprehensible moral belief-systems

#2

Post by New! Tazy Ten » Tue Nov 27, 2018 12:48 pm

Humans are naturally hypocritical. Not because there's a lot of people that want something like free healthcare but are staunchly anti communist, or pro-choice but also strongly catholic. I believe it's because we have a bad time explaining ourselves even to ourselves. Partially so we feel at home with other people we know, but also because it's easier to seem that way than to accidentally sound like an idiot trying to figure yourself out. Confidence is a big part of one's ego, even if you're about to suggest the most indefensible of positions. Why differs from person to person, but I believe all these people do actually believe what they say. Maybe it doesn't make sense to someone from a distance but to them it's the best way to live. Maybe it's not healthy but it gets you to the next day and that's what matters to most.

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Re: Incomprehensible moral belief-systems

#3

Post by Booyakasha » Thu Nov 29, 2018 1:53 pm

I don't know, man. It's hard to be single-minded. Like, your parents teach you one thing, and then Sesame Street teaches you some other thing. Presumably it's close to what your parents teach you, but even so, it's a compromising influence, right. So then the Church teaches you the third thing, and school is the fourth, and Scouting is the fifth. Then Grandpa comes over one weekend, and Tante Inge the weekend after. That's seven weird influences all just jumping all over a child's psyche, all trying to smush it into their own idea of 'child perfection'. And they ain't all just after raising up wonderful people---------some of them got agendas. Like, not your parents and Tante Inge so much, but you bet your boots the school and Church and Scouts have a tips cup. And this is at age five-six-seven, right. Nevermind high school, with its commie teachers and gay-bashing football coaches and FBLA and Model UN and all, or college, with its million billion new things. Rivers on a delta.

It's hard to know yourself. To really dig down to your core, and find something, and stick to it. You ever seen '1776'? Good movie. I think John Adams dug down real deep, and found his guns, right, and he stuck to 'em, and everybody hated him. Maybe you got to be obnoxious and disliked. Maybe that's why we only get a John Adams, or a Jesus, a King Arthur every so often. Nobody really wants to be crucified. I bet even old Giles Corey would have preferred not to be crushed to death, man.
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Re: Incomprehensible moral belief-systems

#4

Post by I REALLY HATE PRESENTS! » Tue Dec 04, 2018 11:00 am

^^ I think you're right about humans being naturally hypocritical, to a point. I do think there needs to be a line where a person actually listens to themselves and notices glaring contradictions in what they're saying, then actually attempt to address it. Then again, ego does tend to get in the way a lot, so definitely easier said than done. On issue of morality though, I think we have an obligation to take another look at what we're saying, especially if we're clearly being ridiculous like the guy in the video.

^ I agree that there's lots of influences in our lives from early on, not all of them necessarily coming from a good place either. It's also true that it is tough to know yourself, I know I've lied to myself more than anyone has to me. I tend to think on hypothetical situations, and it's easy to imagine being a different person simply due to environmental factors. Regardless, right is right and wrong is wrong, isn't it?

If being obnoxious and disliked it what it takes, I'm half-way there, haha. I'll check out 1776 though.

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Re: Incomprehensible moral belief-systems

#5

Post by Booyakasha » Tue Dec 04, 2018 11:46 am

It's a musical. I don't know if you're into that, but you should give it a try, if only to see their take on John Adams (played by William Daniels, aka Feeny from 'Boy Meets World', when he was youngish).

I like John Adams, man. He was one of the real ones. A firebrand, a tireless devil's advocate, a good old-fashioned son-of-a-bitch. He should be on one of our bills. Give Hamilton or Jackson the heave-ho, why not.
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Re: Incomprehensible moral belief-systems

#6

Post by Christmas PDN » Tue Dec 04, 2018 11:34 pm

Christianity is a very loose belief system, where it's very very easy to reconcile your own personal beliefs with what the Bible might say. People have been doing this since the Church split, as evident by the plethora of Christian denominations. I think it's a bit one-track to think that saying, say, a pro-choice Christian is contradicting themselves. Especially when there is really no mention of abortion in the Bible in the first place.

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Re: Incomprehensible moral belief-systems

#7

Post by CaptHayfever » Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:54 am

^The argument there is whether or not abortion constitutes murder, which, of course, IS mentioned in the Bible.
One rationale for pro-choice Christians that I've heard (& agree with) is that we don't actually support abortion at all; we just realize that more abortion-related deaths will happen if it's banned, since women will just go back to getting it done illegally, where there will be a higher risk to themselves. Another (which I agree with even more) is that the best way to reduce/end abortions is not to ban them, but to remove the causes in the first place: support birth control, sex ed, pre- & post-natal healthcare, childcare, & maternity/paternity leave, while working to end workplace gender discrimination, stigmas that ostracize unwed/teen mothers, & whatever excuses unwed/teen fathers use to shirk their responsibilities.

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Re: Incomprehensible moral belief-systems

#8

Post by Christmas PDN » Wed Dec 05, 2018 11:57 am

^Where is abortion mentioned in the Bible? I had decided to look but couldn't actually find anything aside from a passage in Exodus regarding miscarriage.

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Re: Incomprehensible moral belief-systems

#9

Post by mushroom » Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:21 pm

It isn't, murder is.

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Re: Incomprehensible moral belief-systems

#10

Post by Christmas PDN » Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:22 pm

Oooh, I misunderstood what Capt meant haha.

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Re: Incomprehensible moral belief-systems

#11

Post by mushroom » Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:39 pm

Per the topic: any moral belief you hold can be made to accord with any other moral belief because morality, at bottom, is how you feel about something. It's well imaginable that somebody can feel one way about something but a completely different way about a seemingly very similar thing. They might even convince a large number of people to share this set of beliefs and codify it in a book or something.

I suppose we could say that feeling two different things about the same exact thing would be contradictory, but even then we can say that they just changed their mind.

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Re: Incomprehensible moral belief-systems

#12

Post by Marilincarnation » Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:54 pm

CaptHayfever wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:54 am
^The argument there is whether or not abortion constitutes murder, which, of course, IS mentioned in the Bible.
One rationale for pro-choice Christians that I've heard (& agree with) is that we don't actually support abortion at all; we just realize that more abortion-related deaths will happen if it's banned, since women will just go back to getting it done illegally, where there will be a higher risk to themselves. Another (which I agree with even more) is that the best way to reduce/end abortions is not to ban them, but to remove the causes in the first place: support birth control, sex ed, pre- & post-natal healthcare, childcare, & maternity/paternity leave, while working to end workplace gender discrimination, stigmas that ostracize unwed/teen mothers, & whatever excuses unwed/teen fathers use to shirk their responsibilities.

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I'm just gonna quote this for emphasis because it's very well-said

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Re: Incomprehensible moral belief-systems

#13

Post by Marilincarnation » Wed Dec 05, 2018 1:02 pm

Random User wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 11:57 am
^Where is abortion mentioned in the Bible? I had decided to look but couldn't actually find anything aside from a passage in Exodus regarding miscarriage.
The Bible isn't a comprehensive list of answers to every question we'll ever have, but it does give us everything we need. You're right that the Bible doesn't explicitly talk about abortion, but it doesn't explicitly talk about a lot of things. We have to take the principles it gives and apply them.

Where the breakdown happens among different denominations is between the principles and the applications. Some see the same principles but apply them differently; some are less adherent to the principles; some are very married to specific applications.

The principles that come into play with abortion are 1. the sanctity of human life (which includes the discussion of the soul and when life begins) and 2. the command of God against murder. No one will argue with #2. But there is a lot of room to argue in the space of #1...depending on how you view the authority and sufficiency of the Bible.

I've actually written a bit on this very topic. For what it's worth.

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