Incomprehensible moral belief-systems

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Incomprehensible moral belief-systems

#1

Post by I REALLY HATE PRESENTS! » Tue Nov 27, 2018 11:54 am

Regardless of which side of an issue you fall on there's always nuanced positions on both sides with different sets of logic and moral beliefs, some you appreciate more and others less. You can still understand their position even if you thoroughly disagree with it because it makes sense or at the very least remains consistent with their own disagreeable ideology. However, sometimes there's such inane garbage which flows forth from people that you can hardly tolerate let alone respect. It seems like there's people out there who make it their business to be intellectually dishonest and morally paradoxical yet still pass themselves off as having serious input worthy of consideration. Again, I'm not talking about mere disagreement or even disdain at opposing views, I mean just holding plain bad ones.

A couple of examples. I was thinking about this topic as I watched Ben Shaprio debate someone. He was a guy who basically held the view that, as Ben summarized, "it's wrong to kill a hamster but acceptable to kill a man in a temporary coma." The guy didn't even bat an eye to it, didn't seem as if he felt that his view was mischaracterized or anything, just "hyuk hyuk yep." Here's the video, it's short and contains no objectionable content so I don't think it goes against any rule to post it (to the best of my memory):



This other gem I stumbled upon on accident glancing through a forum:
I'm a pro-choice Christian. I will support a family member's or friend's abortion without pressuring them into any choice, and once that's done I will go to church and light a candle for the little life which didn't get a chance.
While I don't believe Christianity and abortion can go together at all, with enough justification it's theoretically possible to shoehorn them together on some level but that's only possible without acknowledging the fact that abortion is the taking of a life. Generally pro-choice advocates need to deny that there is a life in the equation, usually referring to it as merely a parasite or some other cold and ghastly term, but how can one consolidate the support of a murder and the grievance of that same loss of life? It's trying to have your cake and eat it too, retain morality and yet attain the "benefits" of a pro-choice stance (being able to support something your friends/family are doing, push political agendas, etc).

I'd much sooner respect a wolf who eats sheep in the open over one in sheep's clothing, but I'd even take that over a wolf in sheep's clothing eating sheep and then mourning their demise. I know it's a popular thing in the modern world to think anything goes, that any set of inherently contradictory philosophies can be tied together, and that a denial of reality is now simply one's own truth, but I think there needs to be some kind of line there.

It's probably not possible to separate the inevitable abortion debate from this topic, but keep in mind that's not necessarily what this is about. I'm more interested in stimulating conversation around specific examples of political or philosophical views which aren't actually reasonable. Feel free to share any (an example I often hear but don't agree with as necessarily being contradictory is about people who are for the death penalty but against abortion).

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Re: Incomprehensible moral belief-systems

#2

Post by New! Tazy Ten » Tue Nov 27, 2018 12:48 pm

Humans are naturally hypocritical. Not because there's a lot of people that want something like free healthcare but are staunchly anti communist, or pro-choice but also strongly catholic. I believe it's because we have a bad time explaining ourselves even to ourselves. Partially so we feel at home with other people we know, but also because it's easier to seem that way than to accidentally sound like an idiot trying to figure yourself out. Confidence is a big part of one's ego, even if you're about to suggest the most indefensible of positions. Why differs from person to person, but I believe all these people do actually believe what they say. Maybe it doesn't make sense to someone from a distance but to them it's the best way to live. Maybe it's not healthy but it gets you to the next day and that's what matters to most.

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Re: Incomprehensible moral belief-systems

#3

Post by Booyakasha » Thu Nov 29, 2018 1:53 pm

I don't know, man. It's hard to be single-minded. Like, your parents teach you one thing, and then Sesame Street teaches you some other thing. Presumably it's close to what your parents teach you, but even so, it's a compromising influence, right. So then the Church teaches you the third thing, and school is the fourth, and Scouting is the fifth. Then Grandpa comes over one weekend, and Tante Inge the weekend after. That's seven weird influences all just jumping all over a child's psyche, all trying to smush it into their own idea of 'child perfection'. And they ain't all just after raising up wonderful people---------some of them got agendas. Like, not your parents and Tante Inge so much, but you bet your boots the school and Church and Scouts have a tips cup. And this is at age five-six-seven, right. Nevermind high school, with its commie teachers and gay-bashing football coaches and FBLA and Model UN and all, or college, with its million billion new things. Rivers on a delta.

It's hard to know yourself. To really dig down to your core, and find something, and stick to it. You ever seen '1776'? Good movie. I think John Adams dug down real deep, and found his guns, right, and he stuck to 'em, and everybody hated him. Maybe you got to be obnoxious and disliked. Maybe that's why we only get a John Adams, or a Jesus, a King Arthur every so often. Nobody really wants to be crucified. I bet even old Giles Corey would have preferred not to be crushed to death, man.
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Re: Incomprehensible moral belief-systems

#4

Post by I REALLY HATE PRESENTS! » Tue Dec 04, 2018 11:00 am

^^ I think you're right about humans being naturally hypocritical, to a point. I do think there needs to be a line where a person actually listens to themselves and notices glaring contradictions in what they're saying, then actually attempt to address it. Then again, ego does tend to get in the way a lot, so definitely easier said than done. On issue of morality though, I think we have an obligation to take another look at what we're saying, especially if we're clearly being ridiculous like the guy in the video.

^ I agree that there's lots of influences in our lives from early on, not all of them necessarily coming from a good place either. It's also true that it is tough to know yourself, I know I've lied to myself more than anyone has to me. I tend to think on hypothetical situations, and it's easy to imagine being a different person simply due to environmental factors. Regardless, right is right and wrong is wrong, isn't it?

If being obnoxious and disliked it what it takes, I'm half-way there, haha. I'll check out 1776 though.

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Re: Incomprehensible moral belief-systems

#5

Post by Booyakasha » Tue Dec 04, 2018 11:46 am

It's a musical. I don't know if you're into that, but you should give it a try, if only to see their take on John Adams (played by William Daniels, aka Feeny from 'Boy Meets World', when he was youngish).

I like John Adams, man. He was one of the real ones. A firebrand, a tireless devil's advocate, a good old-fashioned son-of-a-bitch. He should be on one of our bills. Give Hamilton or Jackson the heave-ho, why not.
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Re: Incomprehensible moral belief-systems

#6

Post by Christmas PDN » Tue Dec 04, 2018 11:34 pm

Christianity is a very loose belief system, where it's very very easy to reconcile your own personal beliefs with what the Bible might say. People have been doing this since the Church split, as evident by the plethora of Christian denominations. I think it's a bit one-track to think that saying, say, a pro-choice Christian is contradicting themselves. Especially when there is really no mention of abortion in the Bible in the first place.

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Re: Incomprehensible moral belief-systems

#7

Post by CaptHayfever » Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:54 am

^The argument there is whether or not abortion constitutes murder, which, of course, IS mentioned in the Bible.
One rationale for pro-choice Christians that I've heard (& agree with) is that we don't actually support abortion at all; we just realize that more abortion-related deaths will happen if it's banned, since women will just go back to getting it done illegally, where there will be a higher risk to themselves. Another (which I agree with even more) is that the best way to reduce/end abortions is not to ban them, but to remove the causes in the first place: support birth control, sex ed, pre- & post-natal healthcare, childcare, & maternity/paternity leave, while working to end workplace gender discrimination, stigmas that ostracize unwed/teen mothers, & whatever excuses unwed/teen fathers use to shirk their responsibilities.

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Re: Incomprehensible moral belief-systems

#8

Post by Christmas PDN » Wed Dec 05, 2018 11:57 am

^Where is abortion mentioned in the Bible? I had decided to look but couldn't actually find anything aside from a passage in Exodus regarding miscarriage.

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Re: Incomprehensible moral belief-systems

#9

Post by mushroom » Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:21 pm

It isn't, murder is.

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Re: Incomprehensible moral belief-systems

#10

Post by Christmas PDN » Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:22 pm

Oooh, I misunderstood what Capt meant haha.

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Re: Incomprehensible moral belief-systems

#11

Post by mushroom » Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:39 pm

Per the topic: any moral belief you hold can be made to accord with any other moral belief because morality, at bottom, is how you feel about something. It's well imaginable that somebody can feel one way about something but a completely different way about a seemingly very similar thing. They might even convince a large number of people to share this set of beliefs and codify it in a book or something.

I suppose we could say that feeling two different things about the same exact thing would be contradictory, but even then we can say that they just changed their mind.

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Re: Incomprehensible moral belief-systems

#12

Post by Marilincarnation » Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:54 pm

CaptHayfever wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:54 am
^The argument there is whether or not abortion constitutes murder, which, of course, IS mentioned in the Bible.
One rationale for pro-choice Christians that I've heard (& agree with) is that we don't actually support abortion at all; we just realize that more abortion-related deaths will happen if it's banned, since women will just go back to getting it done illegally, where there will be a higher risk to themselves. Another (which I agree with even more) is that the best way to reduce/end abortions is not to ban them, but to remove the causes in the first place: support birth control, sex ed, pre- & post-natal healthcare, childcare, & maternity/paternity leave, while working to end workplace gender discrimination, stigmas that ostracize unwed/teen mothers, & whatever excuses unwed/teen fathers use to shirk their responsibilities.

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I'm just gonna quote this for emphasis because it's very well-said

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Re: Incomprehensible moral belief-systems

#13

Post by Marilincarnation » Wed Dec 05, 2018 1:02 pm

Random User wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 11:57 am
^Where is abortion mentioned in the Bible? I had decided to look but couldn't actually find anything aside from a passage in Exodus regarding miscarriage.
The Bible isn't a comprehensive list of answers to every question we'll ever have, but it does give us everything we need. You're right that the Bible doesn't explicitly talk about abortion, but it doesn't explicitly talk about a lot of things. We have to take the principles it gives and apply them.

Where the breakdown happens among different denominations is between the principles and the applications. Some see the same principles but apply them differently; some are less adherent to the principles; some are very married to specific applications.

The principles that come into play with abortion are 1. the sanctity of human life (which includes the discussion of the soul and when life begins) and 2. the command of God against murder. No one will argue with #2. But there is a lot of room to argue in the space of #1...depending on how you view the authority and sufficiency of the Bible.

I've actually written a bit on this very topic. For what it's worth.

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Re: Incomprehensible moral belief-systems

#14

Post by I REALLY HATE PRESENTS! » Thu Dec 13, 2018 12:20 am

I should reiterate again that the topic's not necessarily just about abortion, and although I don't agree with everything said. it is good to see some civil discussion on it.

Here's something that should fit snugly in this topic:



I don't follow Pewdiepie or anything about him, but I have to wonder how that guy from the Tweet can pretend to care about ethical journalism when he spews this kind of garbage. Even if the angle he was spinning here existed it would still be worthless, but apparently it isn't even true according to many commenters and their evidence. I'm sure he somehow believes he's doing the right thing by twisting the truth to attack an "anti-Semite" but he doesn't realize he's what's wrong with society, zero integrity.

Furthermore, the guy seems to have made direct calls to violence against white men (and funnily enough, about Jews by also saying "being a Jew is never needing to say sorry for being white"). What's more incomprehensible than this guy's belief-system is social media's Twitter's clear bias against conservatives, evidence being that he isn't banned, and that people actually still deny it lol.

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Re: Incomprehensible moral belief-systems

#15

Post by mushroom » Thu Dec 13, 2018 12:57 am

Twitter is all about getting likes and retweets, and one of the best ways to do so is to incite outrage, no matter how slight the offense. It's one of the big reasons I stopped keeping an eye on social media, it's so easy to get swept up and outraged by something you don't really know anything about just based on one or two inflammatory sentences of quite potentially questionable veracity. A "journalist" for Buzzfeed's job is to get eyes on them and their work, full stop. Their moral character includes straight up lying to get those eyes, so it's not necessarily inconsistent for them to lie about caring about ethical journalism. Their morals are shown through their behavior, not what they say.

That being said, Pewdiepie is a piece of ****, and definitely some degree of racist. Non-racists don't just blurt out the N word in anger. You shouldn't have to reach as far as that guy did to show that, though.

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Re: Incomprehensible moral belief-systems

#16

Post by steeze » Fri Dec 14, 2018 11:20 am

I try not to give my attention to "social media celebrities." Their opinions have never and will never make a difference in a professional or political setting to which would ever affect me. Probably one of the least glamorous ways to be famous. I find it cringe that people sit alone in their rooms trying to make skits or talk like with that fake enthusiasm to their "fans."

To me, they're just people with no real marketable real-world skills who happened to get lucky for whatever reason. Maybe they made a funny video. To each their own if people look up and care about their lives but I just don't see the merit. If my generation looked up less to celebrities and actually toward people who are real heroes like doctors, lawyers, firemen, policemen, and military then we'd have a chance at not being mindless drones.

I was brought up Catholic and while I don't necessarily practice or pray, I am thankful that I was brought up in an environment that taught me to respect others and not be an all-around scumbag. I guess what I got out of it was, "do the right thing," but not necessarily, "believe the right things." I'm Pro-Choice but not because I think it's okay to terminate a pregnancy. I align myself with that because if it was up to me, it wouldn't be up to men like me to decide something like that.

The only thing that comes out of me is the food and drink that sustains my life. I'm never gonna push out a miracle unless I've had a 32 oz steak, a rack of ribs and a high fiber side. Hypocritical views are just basic human nature. The thought that every life deserves a chance paired against the notion that, "this person lived their life and they killed other people so now they should die as a result," seems to be the easiest to point out. Abortion vs. Death Penalty. It's probably because innocence is in our nature to protect and evil is in our nature to condemn.

The time in which we live is accumulating a lot of static. There is so much being generated with peoples opinions being transported from their brains into ours it's almost like everyone's experiencing a short once or twice a day. Shocked at how other people feel and behave comparing it with their own feelings and behavior. Just unnecessary stress that humans have never had to deal with. I think it honestly brings out the worst version in all of us. Some thoughts and opinions are better left to their owners. The more polarized this country becomes the sharper the lines that divide it become. Evidently, something will give way soon and it won't be the beautiful dream brave men fought for 242 years ago. There's always hope. Hopefully, people wake up one day and remember to love not just one another again. I guess we forgot that in 2016.

My one wish for Americans is for them to give up this view that we have to police the rest of the world and tell them that the way we live is the right way to live. Clearly, our way has it's own problems as well. The time where understanding and acceptance is widespread is far off. Hopefully, we get there before we kill our planet and ourselves.

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Re: Incomprehensible moral belief-systems

#17

Post by Christmas PDN » Fri Dec 14, 2018 11:28 am

Social media celebrities certainly have an affect on the political sphere. Donald Trump himself used social media in such a way that he abused sensationalist news outlets and got almost all of his press for free, and look where he is now. Though I think it's a good idea to not worry too much about what these "celebrities" think, it's also probably foolhardy to assume they aren't exerting their influence onto a majority of their fans, who are likely to agree with them if they like them enough.

That's what a lot of it comes down to, like Mush said already. The bottom line is getting more attention, not having consistent morals. I would take it a step further and argue that generally speaking, most people don't have consistent morals, and instead bend their morality to fit what makes them feel better, because that's easier than reconsidering an entire standpoint. Though I don't have any hard evidence, that's more just an observational thing.

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Re: Incomprehensible moral belief-systems

#18

Post by steeze » Fri Dec 14, 2018 11:49 am

I should have been more clear. I don't consider Donald Trump a social media celebrity. He was an A-Lister with multi-million dollar real estate and hotel developing properties. Plus, the Apprentice. Every presidential candidate since the birth of social media has used it to try and bend elections in their favor. I'm speaking more along the lines of the jake pauls of the world. I would 100 percent agree that they perpetuate their opinions and people LISTEN. Which is sad and brings me back to my mindless drones comment.

Is there anyone out there that gets their news from neutral news outlets? Did anyone take their news this morning with skim milk and a grain of salt? Talk about blurred lines, sorry Robin Thicke.

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Re: Incomprehensible moral belief-systems

#19

Post by Christmas PDN » Fri Dec 14, 2018 12:02 pm

I would be inclined to agree, but I don't think any president had really gamed social media to the extent that Donald Trump did during the elections. Whether it was his or his campaign manager's idea, it worked really well. In this case, making outrage posts on Twitter almost every week meant that his bought versus earned media was incredibly disproportionate to his opponents.

That's kind of an aside, but I hope it kind of ties in just why it is people post for outrage on Twitter.

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Re: Incomprehensible moral belief-systems

#20

Post by steeze » Fri Dec 14, 2018 12:27 pm

I think you're forgetting the one former president who literally wrote the rulebook on how to use social media tools to aid in a political campaign. It wasn't a new idea at all. . . I filled up a whole thesis on it in college for media studies. All trump did was rant on twitter. If you think it was an idea to spend less money, I got news for you. He does it every single day and fought his advisors and managers the entire election as a result. Let's not forget also that he won in the electoral college, not by the popular vote. I would call that going with the flow on the campaign managers part. If I was a PR director on that campaign I would have torn out my hair and taken up smoking. Maybe Trump is fooling us all and he's some sort of secret genius or something. Image

I'm not saying it wasn't a smart move to make political statements with a character limit. I just don't think he deserves credit for concocting some plan to sway voters on twitter when he was just being his usual troll self like he's been for years on Twitter. That disproportionate spending might have worked out for him in 2016 but I think it's going to come full circle in 2020 to bite him in the ass when all his promises and statements get thrown in his face. That is if we don't have some sort of constitutional crisis with the justice department. There's so much more to using social media in campaigns than banner ads and posts.

Obama spent 985 million on his campaign in 2012
Trump spent 957 million on his campaign in 2016

(Not too dissimilar)

God I need a drink just thinking about 2020.

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